Subj: Chairs (Summary -- Long) Date: Fri, Mar 24, 1995 6:24 PM CDT From: k1vr@k1vr.jjm.com To: cq-contest@tgv.com ============================================================ Chairs -- The Question ============================================================ Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 00:11:32 EST From: "Fred Hopengarten" To: cq-contest@tgv.com Subject: Chairs This plea may not be worthy of the engineering and other talents of this august body, but . . . ;-) I've just spent a weekend sitting in a chair. 2400 QSO's later, I'm giving serious thought as to a better pair of chairs (one for the RUN station, and one for the MULT station). Has anyone got any good ideas on chair brands and models at reasonable prices? Hell, we fuss over band pass filters which cost $30, why not fuss a bit over the subject of good operating chairs? Seems to me like a good subject for the reflector, but if you wish to reply directly, I'll summarize (unless you object). All thoughts welcome. ============================================================ Chairs -- The Summary ============================================================ March 24, 1995: Well, the subject proved popular, as you will see below. Thanks to all who contributed. As contributions have now trailed off, I offer: I dunno...seems like LOTS of engineering goes into some chairs. Well... I tell ya ...the various chairs in the Herman Miller office chair product line are fantastic. I think mine is the "Ergon" model ... but can't remember... regardless ... the chair is so good that I bought one here in the USA and then airfreighted it for a couple hundred more bucks back to Japan where I used it in my hamshack at home. I've NEVER regretted the money I've spent on it. I've now shipped it more than 11,000 miles .. and it (like my FT-1000D) will go where I go. ;-) Sandy WA6BXH/7J1ABV slay@netcom.com Portland, Oregon ============================================================ Fred, I've been using executive type office chairs for over 30 years. It must breath, be cloth not leather, and should have a high back. At 3AM I lay back and search for multipliers. Also, it needs to have arms so you don't get hurt when you fall asleep. Another thing that helps me is to have a goose down pillow on the seat. George, W2VJN ============================================================ Since the subject was raised and there appears to be some interest, thought I would pass along some ergonomic guidelines that Texas Instruments (my day job) uses for workstation design. As it is intended for people who sit in front of a computer all day, it seems like it should apply pretty well to contesters! Step 1: Adjusting your chair: 1. Height: thighs should be parallel with floor and heels resting comfortably on floor. Knees 90-110 degree angle. 2. Adjust the chair back (if possible) so the contour fits the contour of your back. (If not possible, try the lumbar support pillow). 3. Arm rests should not be too high (they shouldn't cause you to "hunch" your shoulders). Step 2. Finding the right workstation height: 1. With your arms in a comfortable typing position (relaxed shoulders, arms hanging loosely at sides, elbows at 90 degree angle, wrists straight or neutral position), your hands should now be on the keyboard. (See note on footrests later.) (Remember, as someone else noted, sliding keyboard trays are available which attach to the underside of your desktop; very handy if your desk is too high and/or not enough room on a short desktop and it slides out of way when needed.) Step 3. Correct monitor height: 1. Screen should be 16" to 22" from your eyes. 2. Adjust so the top of the screen is at eye level. Bifocal users may need to lower it to a comfortable level. 3. Tilt or use a glare filter to reduce glare from overhead lighting. 4. Adjust brightness & contrast controls to ease eyestrain. 5. Green-yellow colors are easiest on the eye. 6. Clean your screen and glare filter regularly for dust build-up. 7. Take down decorations, notes, and other distractions around your screen; Your eye muscles are straining to focus on these as well. (Hmm, what about schedule and band opening reminders and inspirational signs like "Think Loud!".) Other areas: 1. Wrist rests: help support the wrist but shouldn't immobilize them (don't become too dependent and lazy). 2. Footrests: help support the feet and provide better blood flow through the legs. Thighs should be parallel to the floor when the feet are supported. Anything will work: use an old telephone book, two 3-ring binders taped together, etc. NOTE: Thighs should be parallel to floor whether using a footrest or not. This is basically to adapt for other things you can't adjust. For instance, you may not be able adjust your workstation height and chair height to match the previously listed parameters. If your desk is a set height, and you have to raise your chair so your arms are at the right angle for the keyboard, then you may need to add the footrest to get your thighs parallel again. Or maybe you just have short legs! 3. Area layout: this should all be obvious, with things you need to look at or reach for closer than things you don't need access to as often. 4. "Document Holder" - we don't use these, but the ideas should be the same for other thing(s) besides the screen that you look at often (like a radio): First find your "dominant" eye (yeah, that's the first I heard of it, too) by holding up your hands together at arms length and make a "peep-hole" with your thumbs and forefingers held together (this is easier to do than to de- scribe - or just take a piece of paper and cut a hole 1 or 2 inches in diameter and hold it up), now look through the hole at a distant object with both your eyes open. Without moving your hands, close one eye, then the other. Your dominant eye is the one with which you continue to see the object (with the other, you see something else to the right or left of the object). Your dominant eye is the one you focus with first when you look at something. The document holder (or rig) should then be on the same side of the screen as your dominant eye, and it should be the same distance from your eyes as the screen so you don't have to refocus to a different distance. Now, this isn't always the best setup for radios, if you have to keep reaching up to tune it or adjust stuff. Might work if you have one of those cool remote tuning controls, or if you can remotely tune from the keyboard (another hint for Tree and others). Lots of folks seem to like the rig directly below the monitor, or slightly to one side so they can rest the elbow on the table while tuning. Sometimes the keyboard gets in the way of this, but smaller keyboards are available (as are new keyboards with the keys angled to fit hands better). That's about it. Others are sure to have little hints, such as standing up every so often and stretching and moving around. You really should do this at least every 30 minutes. The more often you do it the better you will feel (and more alert). No need to stop operating as you do it. Yeah, I know Trey likes to slouch in his chair with the keyboard in his lap as he breaks records, and some people like to put their feet up on the table (and WB5VZL likes to sleep on the floor under the operating desks during multi's - go figure). Whatever feels good. But remember that while slouching feels really good at first, it usually isn't good to stay that way too long (unless of course your chair and station are designed to operate that way - who needs Herman Miller chairs, get a Lazy-boy!). 73, Dave "Quasimodo" Harper WD5Natural p.s. Regarding chairs: until you spend the bux for a good one, spruce up your fave chair by buying an inexpensive lumbar support pillow. You can also fold up a towel or such in a pinch (like on expeditions) for lumbar support, but it tends to fall out of place when you get up or move around. And whatever chair or support you use, you have to sit in it properly: Push your butt all the way back into the chair so the lumbar support will push against and support your low back. This will straighten up your upper back, neck, etc. Knees 90 degree angle, feet on floor. By the way, I'm a massage therapist and if any of you really serious dxpeditioners want to pay my way I can make sure your back stays in good shape for the contest :-) ============================================================ Fred, a GOOD subject. I traded in my cheap desk chair for one with MORE padding & firm padding. It's not best but it works. It is has 5 wheels on bottom, which is something the safety minded ham should look at over the 4 wheel spider type base. ALSO, measure the door to your closet (uh, shack) before you buy. Robert WB5CRG w5robert@blkbox.com ============================================================ Don't know what the best chair is, but I do know the worst! A couple of years ago, I was part of the 20 meter crew during a m/m at AA6TT. Off in the corner I saw a novel chair -- an old cast iron seat from a farm tractor, welded to some iron chair legs. No padding, no back. But it looked pretty cool, so we used it. Didn't really notice any problems until after the contest was over. I couldn't walk straight for a week, and my back was screwed up for over a month. - Bruce AA5B ============================================================ It is most certainly a worthy subject, and a good deal of contemporary engineering and design is being expended on this and related subjects. We call this field ergonomics, or human factors and most of the repetitive motion injuries one is likely to encounter can be eliminated or reduced by it's proper application. A few notable principles applicable to the subject of seating: Holding the same seated position for long periods causes fatigue. The angles of the body should be at approximately 90 degrees, espcially the head. An adjustable chair and adjustable worksurfaces are _required_. Your head and esp. neck should be verically over your spine while seated, looking at the monitor, and your forearms shoild be resting on a chair arm with the keyboard at just the right height and angle. You may have to make some adjustments to the operating position, but this is supposed to be FUN! remember, if it hurts, your doing it wrong!!! Lack of movement also causes pooling of the blood in the lower extremities, leading to increased risk of circulation problems and clotting of the blood. TAKE BREAKS! Get up and walk around. Many books on the subject have been published. No, its not a new age, everyone is a victim, politically correct, liberal approved field filled with flaks and fakirs. Real medical facts only. AE0M, Tony Becker - becker@shell.portal.com - Silicon Valley, U.S.A. ============================================================ I made this exact point in our CU down here...10K in station vs. $1.25 in operating chairs...hmmm 73 John "John Dorr K1AR" ============================================================ I got mine at Building 19 [a retailer which buys insurance company damaged goods and manufacturer overstocks] in Woburn [MA]. $350 dollar chair for $110. I don't know if it even has a brand name. It has low arms that fit under the operating table, and a high back. With a foot rest, it's a dream. - Tony, K1KP, fisher@hp-and.an.hp.com ============================================================ I use an expensive chair. It is a top grade secretarial chair with the following attributes... 1. no arm rests (they get in the way of tables, constrain arm movements). Also, with no arm rests one can turn the chair around backwards and sit on it, leaning one's chest against the backrest. The change in position is a relief. 2. "5-star" base: better than 4 casters; won't tilt over. 3. adjustable height: the pneumatic kind that can be changed quickly with a lever is the best. 4. adjustable height of back rest. 5. tilting back that can be locked into any position with a quick-change lever. 6. titling seat cushing that can also be locked into any position, including one which is slightly forward. This kind of chair works fine for 48 hours. Most others cause troubles. I also find that I will take breaks and operate standing up for 10 minutes or so ... or sometimes kneel on a pillow for a while. Usually I do this when I am getting sleepy. -- Eric k3na@aol.com ============================================================ From: Danny Eskenazi <0005720561@mcimail.com> I'm in the antique business here in Seattle and just purchased a lot of Herman Miller Charles Eames chairs. They have the molded seat and back, and the legs are chrome. Same design they have sold since the 1950s. Don't think it would be a 48 ideal chair, better for conference rooms, etc. Herman Miller makes great stuff, and has a large line from which to pick. Nice to see same great products available for years on end. ============================================================ In a world of $6,000 transceivers and $5,600 amplifiers, I can't pretend to know what 'reasonable' means, but I've been thinking along similar lines... There was a review of a chair made by Lux Steel in the July, 1992 issue of PC Computing. Since sitting in front of a PC is exactly like playing on the radio, I sent away for information. Lux makes over a dozen models: high back, fancy executive type, secretary-type, and everything in between. You have a choice of three grades of fabrics, and many patterns and colors in each grade. "Suggested Retail Prices" are in the $600 - $1,300 range. I have no idea what the street prices would be. Considering the importance of comfortable ergonomics to a competive contest station, this is probably not an unreasonable amount of money to spend. They are commercial quality, and will last a lifetime, I'm sure. The only thing I can't do is tell you how comfortable they are or are not; I've been putting my money into radios, amps, and antennas. The chair has not been so much a problem that I've been willing to allocate the funds to a replacement. Lux's number is 800.334.7426. Let me know what you decide: there is a new chair in my future, someday...73, Steve KC2X, Narcoosee, Florida ssacco@mcimail.com ============================================================ Thought I would add my two cents' worth, since finding something which will keep my 320 pound frame from getting too sore in a particular 48 hour period and still survive the punishment I am giving has obviously been a subject of great interest to me. I found that what made me more uncomfortable than anything else was a chair that was too short to give support to my legs all the way out to the knee joint. So I went to an office supply store and sat in all the desk chairs they had and bought the one that had the longest rear-of-ass to knee-joint distance. That one gave out after five years of yeoman duty and, after being repaired, was retired to service at my upstairs office desk, where it still provides me admirable comfort without having to provide service for such long hours as it previously did. My current operating chair was selected the same way, though of vastly different appearance. It has come close to breaking down a couple of times but N6CZG, Chief Engineer of Radio Station K3ZO, has always managed to bring it back to life with appropriate repairs. I do agree with one of your correspondents that (relatively) frequent breaks are advisable, especially for someone like myself within hailing distance of 60, so before changing bands I generally go upstairs, take a pee and grab another bottle of grapefruit juice before returning to the fray. Fred Laun, K3ZO ============================================================ A good idea, Fred. I operated this year with a pinched nerve in my neck and that makes a person very conscious of ergonomics. The entire topic could stand discussion: chairs operating table height transceiver placement (vertical and horizontal) monitor and keyboard placement (particularly, for the monitor, vertical, horizontal and distance from the operator are all meaningful) pads/armrests/etc. I wound up with my keyer virtually hanging off the front edge of the desk and my keyboard turned about 20 degrees from parallel with the front edge, with my chair all the way down and sitting with the chair tilted back as far as it'll go. Looked funny as hell but it didn't hurt as much -- that and some good drugs! Pete N4ZR@netcom.com ============================================================ I discovered a trick which really seemed to work for me at TI1C in 1993. After 24 hours in one chair, I changed chairs to a different one. It was amazing how good it felt to have the pressure points somewhere else! Probably neither chair was that good to start with, but when you are visiting a station in a different country, you won't have many choices. Tree N6TR tree@cmicro.com PS: It is also neat to be able to operate standing up. I try to do this for several periods during the contest. ============================================================ Before I came to the League, and lived closer to New York City, there was a company in Stamford, CT that specialized in re-selling used office furniture from offices that had closed for one reason or another. I used to get the 100% leather high backed executive type office chairs there (you know, the ones that go for $2,000- 3,000 or more) for about $250 to $300. There might be a place like that in [your] area if you look. Warren, NF1J (wstankiewi@arrl.org) ============================================================ From: "H. Ward Silver" Get a footstool under your operating desk (if the amount of wires and stuff permit...) and get the feet up about 6-8 inches. It takes the pressure off the back of your thighs where they go over the edge of the chair. Ward N0AX ============================================================ I am a big believer in a good chair! Ten years ago, I bought a Giroflex hi-back swivel chair. It is a swiss made chair with lots of adjustments. As I recall, it was costly. But I would have to say it has been worth the investment. Walt - W0CP ============================================================ Chairs are a great subject for contesting, as they are certainly the foundation upon which we place our operators. (sorry about that!) For years I had back problems, especially after long stints in a chair. That problem is gone now, but it wasn't cheap. Call your Steelcase dealer. They make an office chair called a Sensor. Make sure you get the right one for you, and make sure it has a high back. It will set you back $800 or so, but you will agree it was money well spent. If you can't find a dealer, Steelcase is in Grand Rapids, MI, and their phone number is 616 247-2710. 73, Jay w6go@netcom.com PS. This is not intended to be an advertisement for Steelcase and I am in no way associated with Steelcase (except as a happy customer). ============================================================ As you know, I'm in the seating biz and have been for 15 years. I echo the comments of Tony, K1KP. There are really two kinds of ergonomic seating being marketed today...fully adjustable and passively ergonomic. The fully adjustable chair can be configured to fit just about anyone (with SOME exceptions always!) but there is a learning curve involved in the use of the product. The passively ergo chair fits about 85% of the populace and requires little adjustment. This chair generally has only two or three adjustments...pneumatic or manual height adjustment, tension adjustment and maybe forward (what we call "negative") seat tilt adjustment. I am using "the most popular office chair in America" - the Steelcase Sensor chair. It comes in three basic sizes, manual or pneumatic, with or w/o arms, etc., etc. It is NOT inexpensive! It **IS** the best chair I have ever owned I think and built to last - ledgendary Steelcase quality. Prices run anywhere from $575 to $1200 (leather!) at LIST price. Net price runs about 35% less. I have thought about writing an article for NCJ on something relative to Amateur station ergonomics issues but as always, time is at a premium. All kinds of issues come into play and good seating is only one piece of the puzzle. I'm convinced that a well engineered contest station could increase the rate by 10%-15% with the "right" ergonomic design. Good luck working with your contest "cell" or (soon to be I hope) "ergonomic envelope"! Let me know if I can help you. 73, Bruce/WA1G Bruce Marshall email: bruce@shore.net ============================================================ I went down to the "Staples" office supply store and sat in all the chairs they have. I went in with no price limit, only to find the most comfortable chair to operate in (I also program all day, so sitting is REAL important!)... I ended up buying a $200 chair with adjustable everything. It has excellent back support. I just slide my butt/back in and its comfy. The chair was mfd by "Global" in Ontario. I just looked underneath and there is no model number to speak of... Ray Ortgiesen, WF1B E-Mail preferred: wf1b@ids.net ============================================================ In the business section of the Dallas Morning News Saturday feb 18. there is a special report on the Aeron chair, by Herman Miller INC. I don't want to go into all the details but it comes in 3 sizes. Has muli position everything, and adjustable lumbar. Arms, recline, pitch, tilt, tension, etc. It has no foam or fabric..."it uses transparent Pellicle" technology, whatever the hell that is....."this permits flow of air and confoms to individual worker's shape." It has attracted aclaim in the Wall Street Journal, and Fortune magazine. How much you ask....$765 to $1,190 depending on options. Jay wx0banana ============================================================ Chairs are a favorite subject for me as a proper chair is not an extravagance, but a necessity !! About 10 years ago, the friendly commercial air carrier which now is known as US AIR abrubtly rearranged my neck by shattering two vertabrae and doing significant spinal cord injury. One of the things that I found to be simply indespensible was to acquire a good, no excellent, chair for all tasks that require sitting. Before I was forced to retire, the insurance company that underwrote my ADD policy sent an ergonomic expert to my office and he re-arranged my work space and showed me the many options that were available to me for chairs. In my case it is imperative to have my cervical and lumbar spines supported at all times or I suffer excruciating pain. I found a company that provided the perfect solution and of course when I ended my career, the chair followed me home and I am sitting in it while composing this tome. Look for a company that specializes in office ergonomics or contact your insurance company as they have voluminous lists of those compnanies. I ended up with a moderately priced ($1200) chair that is built like a battle ship and looks great. That seems like a lot of money, but in the general scheme of contesting, it is money well spent. I remember when the ARRL was 96 hours long and I {WA1KID} used to operate 90 of the 96 hours sitting in an old rocking chair....(that rocking chair exploded during SS one year leaving me with a running SB220 in my lap...but that is another story). If I had known about this type of chair, I would have had one then, because I KNOW that I could have done better as the fatigue factor would have been measurably reduced. Go try many chairs and get the advice of an expert. You will be amazed at the comfort that is available with a properly designed chair. It is less money than a new Alpha and the results to the bottom line will be remarkable. Natan W6XR/2 ============================================================ After reading the postings about the chairs, I was surprised to NOT see anything about a good quality secretarial chair. I have been using one for contests and find it works very well for me. Seems like the job duties of a secretary would be close to the conditions of a contest operator (long hours at a keyboard). The one I have I purchased used for a song. You might check your used office furniture dealers. BTW, for a look at an exotic Herman Miller creation, check out page 59 in the March issue of Wired. Supposedly it was designed with the help of a "team of ergonomists, orthopedic specialists and physical therapists". Price range of $765 to $1,225. Maybe if I win the Lotto! No comments about my choice of reading material... w7zrc@micron.net Rod Greene W7ZRC Boise ID ============================================================ Being one of advancing age and expanding posterior I made a startling discovery. I can contest longer in a good chair. My wife and I maintain a home office and we bought chairs from Office Max. Spent about 150. I liked mine so much I bought one for the shack. Go to Office Max (or some other joint) and sit in them and find one that 'fits'. There is a great variablility in size. I got one that comes all the way up to my mid shoulder area so I can stretch back without falling over. It also has a good support for the small back area and a really neat pneumatic piston for raising and lowering to change during the test. I also have tried two different chairs and swithed off - it helps the fatigue factor. Alas, I fear we all will be making similiar adjustments as we 'grey'. Dan W8CAR pems_st_dk@noeca.ohio.gov =========================================================== End of File -- Fred Hopengarten K1VR Six Willarch Road * Lincoln, MA 01773-5105 home + office telephone: 617/259-0088 (FAX on demand) internet: k1vr@k1vr.jjm.com "Big antennas, high in the sky, are better than small ones, low."